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Author Topic: Question about hook placement  (Read 35437 times)
swingman
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« on: July 24, 2012, 09:11:54 AM »

One more dumb question to all the tying gurus/wizards out here.

On shank (intruder like) tied flys do you place the hook pointing up or down, and any advantage/dis-advantage for doing so?

Thanks for taking the time to answer.
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camosled
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« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2012, 01:17:16 PM »

Hook point up means fewer lost flies.  Hook down, means more landed fish, according to Tom Larimer who has a pretty large sample size to work from.  Season upon season of outfitting on the Big D will do that. 

I run mine point up in the winter and down in the summer. 

JM

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swingman
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« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2012, 01:38:37 PM »

Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated
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riveraddict
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« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2012, 04:31:44 PM »

   I run my hooks point up. The obvious advantage is less tendency to get hung up on snags. I have experienced no difference in hook-up rate or loss-of-fish rate. Now then, before someone gets fired up about my "finding's" contradicting Tom L's, the difference probably has to do with personal approaches on hooksets. Personally, I run a "drape" in the line and upon feeling a take "give" the rod and/or a step to the fish for about a slow one-thousand-one, one-thousand BAM, I jack 'em and that "jack" is done with an intended amount of gusto. The vast majority of my fish are hooked THROUGH the upper mandible, just forward of the scissors. 
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camosled
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« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2012, 06:42:57 PM »

That'll do it...and to your point, Tom and his clients carry a loop with a floating line...Everyone does it differently.

I don't carry a loop and try to cross their eyes if the take is before the hard part of the swing.  If the take is in the hard part, I just keep the rod low and snug it a bit....Hang downs...I hate em.

Ed, Hows the fishing out there?  Hot water?

JM

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swingman
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« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2012, 07:32:00 PM »

Thanks for the input Ed, I didn't want to un-do 60 shanks..... Considering both sources my next 60 will be hook down, just to keep the fish honest.
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riveraddict
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« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2012, 09:21:01 PM »

   Hangdowns are definitely the toughest. On such takes I've found taking a big step towards the fish, then initiating the one-thousand-and-one, one-thousand-and-SET routine to work about as well as any. The step in to the fish, combined with the second and a half wait, minimizes the dreaded straight upstream line of pull by allowing the line to bow downstream of the fish a bit and thus provides a more lateral pull when the actual hookset is employed. 

   Jeff, the stream just north of me by about 30 miles has a temperature gage. It is similar in size and character as my local stream and has been temping at over 90 degrees in the afternoons. Thus I have to believe that my local is doing about the same. This area is in the worst drought since the 1980's. I looked up some info and temps over 90 become lethal for Smallies. There have been reported die-offs of Northern Pike in area lakes. My local "flow" is running at a mere 40 to 50 cfs. So, I'm sure that you can imagine that I am facing angling conditions the likes of which I've never encountered before. Even so, I'm still managing some bass in the first couple hours of the morning, along with the occasional Carp and/or Pike (even got what I think may have been a Flathead Cat of around 5#'s. Not sure, but it was sure a strange looking critter). Of course, my angling tactics have had to undergo a major transformation from my "usual", but it's been an educational and enjoyable journey. Can't wait to get the 3 and 4 weight conversion rods recorded "in action". I think that doing so is going to really open up some eyes about the capabilities of Skagit casting. My little 8'9" 4 weight conversion is being used to cast 1" to 2" long weighted streamers under a 1 3/4" long foam bobber out to 60ish feet. The casts are impressively consistent and accurate considering the payload and class of rod. I think that once you see it you will also be "wowed"!     
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yuhina
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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2012, 03:57:27 AM »

   Can't wait to get the 3 and 4 weight conversion rods recorded "in action". I think that doing so is going to really open up some eyes about the capabilities of Skagit casting. My little 8'9" 4 weight conversion is being used to cast 1" to 2" long weighted streamers under a 1 3/4" long foam bobber out to 60ish feet. The casts are impressively consistent and accurate considering the payload and class of rod. I think that once you see it you will also be "wowed"!     

This is awesome! Ed, Jeff

Can't wait to see the DVD either  Cheesy
Not sure if you guys taking orders, I would love to see the home-made skagit head in the film if possible... BTW, The line splicing video clips in SM1 has been wonderful to watch. Just thought you might want to put in some "line making" thoughts in the movie... you know "taper", "payload"... that kind of stuff  Grin  Good luck in the filming!

Mark 
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 03:58:13 AM by yuhina » Logged


G_Smolt
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« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2012, 12:02:36 PM »

I run my trailers point-up, and for a very simple reason: you kill less fish by hooking them in the roof of the mouth.

Tongues and gills are to be avoided at all costs, and downward-pointed hooks have a way of making bleeders.
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camosled
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« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2012, 04:07:28 PM »

I run my trailers point-up, and for a very simple reason: you kill less fish by hooking them in the roof of the mouth.

Tongues and gills are to be avoided at all costs, and downward-pointed hooks have a way of making bleeders.

I think there is truth to that when fishing for trout and other species trying to ingest the fly.  For steelhead, particularly fishing with a floating line, I couldn't figure out how most of my fish were getting hooked in the top corner or upper lip, with a downward point. 

Then I observed summer steelhead eating the fly;  When the fly is above the fish, often then come to it from beneath and turn under the fly, placing the point in the upper part of the mouth.  An upward point would miss a purchase entirely.  For winter steelhead, it's impossible to know because the steelhead you see are typically not fish you want to catch.   I don't know how the fish comes to the fly....They could be doing bat turns around it for all I know.   

In Kamchatka I know we killed a ton of big trout because of a wide gaped mouse pattern everyone insisted on using.  I do encounter the occasional bleeding winter steelhead or chinook.  Summer steelhead seem to be hooked consistently in non lethal areas when using a floating line and standard hook orientation. 

But what do I know.

 
JM

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riveraddict
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« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2012, 04:41:51 PM »

   I agree with G, but was leary about posting such a comment because I think that I'm stirring up enough controversy in other departments right now! Since going "point up", gill and tongue hookings have become a very rare event for me and that reason alone is worth it to me to swing that way. But, there are the other "bennies" too, which makes it even better. Thanks for bringing it up G!
   Yeah, many standard production mouse patterns are death to AK and Kamchatka 'bows". I refuse to use them and instead tie my own on tubes with SMALL (#6) trailers. But, even this approach can be "bad" if the fish is allowed to completely inhale the fly before setting the hook. With the tube/trailer setup I don't wait that long and instead set the hook as soon as I see the "mouse" go under. Yeah sure, I lose a fair number of fish, but to me the most exciting part of the mousing "game" is the excitement of seeing the take and therefore losing the fish ain't no big!
  Also, with mice, streamers, etc. tied on tubes, one can always cut the leader and leave the hook in the fish thus minimizing damage to deeply hooked fish. Tubes also negate the temptation of digging out hooks to "save the fly".
   Another Kamchatka proven high fatality fly pattern that I hate seeing in use for far Northern 'bow's is the "Swimming Baitfish". Yikes, talk about a gill dredger and eyeball popper! I know this may sound far-fetched, but I would place a large part of the decline of the lower Zhupanova rainbow fishery squarely onto the use of the wide-gap-hook-mouse and Swimming Baitfish. The fatal hookup rate I saw was as high as 1-in-4 for the early portion of the season.  
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 04:50:04 PM by riveraddict » Logged

swingman
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« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2012, 10:23:37 PM »

Never thought of the possible damage done with hooks down fliys tied shanks. Thans for that tid bit, I'll stay hook up from now on, anything I can do to help them survive after hook up is worth it.
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G_Smolt
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« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2012, 01:35:11 PM »

I run my trailers point-up, and for a very simple reason: you kill less fish by hooking them in the roof of the mouth.

Tongues and gills are to be avoided at all costs, and downward-pointed hooks have a way of making bleeders.

I think there is truth to that when fishing for trout and other species trying to ingest the fly.  For steelhead, particularly fishing with a floating line, I couldn't figure out how most of my fish were getting hooked in the top corner or upper lip, with a downward point. 

I would agree that most fish eating light flies from below turn in a fashion that allows the hook to catch in the corner of the mouth or the buccal flap on the roof of the mouth, regardles of hook orientation.

I would also forward the hypothesis that fish tend to eat deeper flies from the back and sides, and as such do not "turn over" on the fly.
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swingman
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« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2012, 01:59:35 PM »

The eating deeper swung flies makes total sense, that would account for lip/ side of the mouth hooked fish. I recall a video somewhere shot from a downrigger showing how they hit dodger fly combo.

Going to have to find that.
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skagit mist
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« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2012, 01:09:25 AM »

When trailer hooks hang WAY back there, it doesn't matter which way they face, they are going to eventually pipe a fish deep.

I personally fish my hooks down, and that's how I've always done it. If you can tell me how and where in the mouth you hook a fish, i'm baffled. I've caught enough fish on flies, spoons, pink worms, bait. And I can honestly say i've had no idea or evidence on hook placement causing an effect on where the fish get hooked.

Like Ed' explained, giving em the gusto after waiting a sec is a good way to sure set them. As well as not giving them forever to chomp your stuff.

If the fly is too short for you to leave enough room to change your hook, but at the same time not have it dangling way back there. Then don't allow for the hook to be changed, just tie it in there and fish it like we would have before trailer hooks came around. Carry a hook file, keep it out of the rocks on the back cast, and don't dredge the bottom like you're side drifting with slinkies and bait.

Example on hook placement via visual evidence.  (The top 3 are 'silent death' flies)




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Northwest winters make steelhead chrome that much brighter

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