Choosing Proper Sink-Tip Skagit Casting

[speysack]

I've been getting my two rods  dialed in  with the proper skagit compact for my skagit casting stroke.  Going up and down in weight can make a big difference and eventually the match is found.  I have been trying to keep the sink tip and fly constant in this search and for developing my casts.  I use a Decho 8133 with a Skagit Comp. 600 and my  Decho 7130 with a Skagit Comp. 540(it also rocks with Airflo Swith 540).  While working on my cast and trying to dial my lines, I have kept my sink tip constant at 10ft of t-11.  My question and confusion is on choosing the right tip and how that affects line choice.  When I look at the difference in t-11 and t-14 it is only a inch per second difference and the added diameter of the t-14 could make it no different in moving water...so my question is, how and why do you all choose different lengths and densities of sink tip?  Does the t-14 help carry a bigger fly as compared to the t-11?and how does going between the two densities affect the optimum skagit compact head choice?  Then the last factor is the different lengths and how that affects every thing.  

Sorry for the long winded question but frankly I find a ton of contradictory information on the net from both experts and line companies.  I see experts say  you factor the tips into the grain window and others say you don't.  Some say the sink tip length factors into the proper ratio of line length vs. rod length and others don't.  

Thanks for the informative site and I hope you guys can help simplify this to a fairly green caster.

[camosled]

If you're choosing your sink tip to optimize your casting stroke, then you're not fishing.   The great thing about the lines today is that they allow us to choose the right tip for the given fishing condition, and then cast the fly of our choice to the part of the river where we need it.  The Compacts, Flights, Switch, etc. lines will work with any tip you choose, from a floater all the way up to a chunk of 850 Deep Water Express.  Stay flexible and change your set up to meet your fishing conditions, which means you need to change your stroke to get the fly out there at the end of a complete turnover.   Power down with a floating tip; get serious and precise with the heavy tips; everything in between should require a slight adaptation or adjustment of pace or tempo or power application.  Pause too long with a chunk of the heavy stuff and you have a serious anchor to get out of the water.   Crank a floating tip too hard, too soon, and you blow the anchor.  Practice casting until this becomes intuitive.  Don't limit yourself to one or two tips if you want to catch steelhead in the many river conditions you'll encounter.

Every angler I fish with has their own system.  I cut my tips to the rod length, to keep the casting stroke consistent from tip to tip.  But, I fish integrated tips, custom tips, factory tips, I can't count the number of tips I use in a season.   My stroke stays consistent because I cut them all to the same length, for a given rod.  


JM

 

 

[speysack]

Thanks camo, all great points, especially the one of keeping all the tips at rod length.  I remember a day I was really casting well(practice) with 10' of t-11.  I decided to go up to  12' of t14 in order to see how it worked and everything went to hell.  Then I started reading that there is only one inch per second difference between the two materials and that extra sink rate could be nullified by the greater diameter on the t-14.  Then I started to wonder why change at all?

[riveraddict]

The difference of 10' of T-11 versus T-14 in casting isn't as much to do with diameter or sinkrate, but rather weight. There is a 30 grain difference in weight. 30 grains is about the "average" amount of weight difference in lines where one will begin to distinguish a definite difference in casting (lighter designated rods, 6 and under will be more like around 20 grains). Weight is one of two line characteristics that are most influential in how a line system works on a given rod. The second most affective characteristic of line variation that can change casting is length. In my experience, 3' of length change in line will demand a notable change in one's casting dynamics. Considering these factors, if one can dial their rod/line combo "in" to a specific length (within a couple of feet) and weight of tips (within 20-30 grains), then one's casting becomes much more standardized and therefore consistent. Consistency in a casting "platform" yields uniform "feel" or feedback to the caster. Consistently uniform feedback eventually leads to repeatably proficient, precise, and effective casting. Considering that the most important aspect of flyfishing is presentation and that optimium presentation starts with a well executed cast, having a consistent casting platform is far more crucial than a majority of anglers are aware of.

   As regards fishing, the difference in sinkrate between the "T" materials isn't huge... from T-8 to T-11 you gain an increase in sinkrate of an inch or two. The same with changing from T-11 to T-14. The more important reason for the different weight-per-foot difference is in two other departments. Number one is to "match" the fly for casting. T-8 doesn't have enough weight-per-foot to properly cast a 4" Intruder and just won't turnover such a big fly, therefore T-14 is the proper line to use for such a task. On the other hand, T-14 has too much weight-per-foot for smoothly casting a size 6 unweighted Purple Peril... it wants to dump over too quick and "smash" such light fare into the water very hard. In that case, T-8 is the best selection. Department two is "hold-down". Hold-down is the capability of a line to counter the lifting or buoeying effects of a fly's profile and/or materials. T-8 doesn't have enough weight-per-foot to sink or hold-down very well a 4" Intruder. T-14 is better suited to said task. On the other hand, T-14 can be too much for a size 6 Purple Peril, wanting to continue pulling such a small, sparse fly downward through the water column throughout the entire drift and also too quickly, thus resulting in an inordinate degree of snagging bottom. In that case, the weight-per-foot status of T-8 would be better suited to getting a proper sinkrate and hold-down on such a small/sparse fly.

   If you want to experience for youreslf just how much the size and profile and materials of steelhead flies influences the performance of sinktips, put a size 16 GoldRibbedHare'sEar on a 5' chunk of T-8, T-11, or T-14 and go swing some of your favorite steelhead runs. Take note of just how quickly you catch bottom and how often it happens as compared to when you are running your usual steelhead flies!      

[speysack]

Thanks Ed, that really helps.  The turnover factor of sinktips for the size of flies being used is not well stated by most in the business.

Is it safe to say that going up from a t-11 to a t-14(same length) would make me want to go down in head weight by 30 grains(ex. from a 600 to a 570)?

Secondly, does going from a 10' sink tip to a 13' sink tip(same material) make the optimum head length shorten by 3'...assuming the setup was perfectly matched with the 10 footer?

I understand that you experts likely cast a bunch of stuff that is crossing over with ease because of good technique and an ability to adjust...I'm just trying to understand this in order to be making the correct adjustments when trying to dial things.  I don't want to be doing stuff that is 180 degrees from correct.

[riveraddict]

   Actually, going from a T-11 tip, to a T-14 tip of the same length, will require a HEAVIER head to maintain casting proficiency. In Skagit casting, there must be enough weight in the floating-head portion of the line to first, create sufficient casting energy to overcome any in-water resistance created by the fly and/or sinktip, and then second, once that water resistance factor has been removed by clearing the fly and/or sinktip from the water, still retain enough "leftover" energy to complete/finish the cast. Since the T-14 tip is in fact heavier than the T-11 tip, it is going to take a bit more casting energy to yank it out of the water and therefore a bit heavier head will work better.

   The answer to your second question is a bit more subjective. Ideally, yes, a change of 3' in one's tip system will change the optimum length of the head by 3'. However, keep in mind that going from a 10' sinktip to a 13 footer of the same material, not only changes the length of the system by 3', it will also change the weight by a certain amount of grains because of that additional 3' of line. That additional 3' of length will add 24 grains with a T-8 tip system, 33 grains with a T-11 tip system, and 42 grains with a T-14 tip system... in other words it is significant enough to produce changes in casting dynamics that are in addition to those produced by the length factor. The whole "tip thing" can be quite complicated, if one desires to make it that... or fairly simple. As regards "simple", keep this "fact" in mind... the most common commercially available tip systems/sets - the MOW tips(tips that adjust different depth presentations by using varying lengths of the same very-fast-sinking material, but maintain same-length-in-tips status by use of integrated floating-line sections such as 2 1/2' of T-8 sink with 7 1/2' of integrated floater, 5' of T-8 sink with 5' of integrated floater, 7 1/2' of T-8 sink with 2 1/2' of integrated floater, etc., to create an across-the-board length of 10') or the "Types tips" (4 to 5 tips of same length, generally 15',  that accomodate different depth presentations by varying the sinkrate of the individual tips, such as 15' of Type 3, 15' of Type 5, 15' of Type 8, etc.) -  will provide capabilities to present a fly from the surface on down to around 5'-6'. In other words, they can/will cover the majority of situations that would/could be considered reasonably flyfishable, and it's all in a "package" that is about as accomodating as can be for trying to maintain a FAIRLY consistent casting platform (not PERFECT, but FAIRLY CONSISTENT). Personally, I "tweak" my heads to accomodate one specific "set" of tips and call it good. There are enough variations already inherent in casting - size/weight of fly, depth/speed of water, direction/velocity of wind - that I thus strive to avoid as much as possible having to cast varying lengths and/or weights of tips on any particular head/rod system. A good part of the fun in flyfishing for me is the "pleasurable casting" and inconsistent casting dynamics are not conducive to pleasurable casting.

   On a related note of "general information" regarding the use of the term "fairly consistent" in regards to MOW-type tip sets. The concept of the MOW tips was to produce a set of tips that would give varying presentation depths while producing as consistent a set of casting dynamics as possible. The main criteria were to maintain one specific total length for all tips, and one specific total weight for all tips. The reality is, that the integrated float sections have to be of a couple-grains-heavier-per-foot status in order to promote good turnover of the denser, sinking portions. Thus, the all-floating tip is in fact the heaviest tip of the bunch, with each subsequent increasing percentage of sinktip tip becoming lighter in total weight. So, there is/can be a difference of 20-30 grains in weight, maybe even a bit more, within any particular MOW tip kit. That's just a FYI. "We" decided to leave the all-float tip "as is"- heaviest - in order to accomodate the casting of heavily weighted flies on a long leader and yes, even with a BOBBER (just callin' it what it IS). However, if the use of the floating tip is aimed more at swinging "typical" steelhead wets such as Green Butt Skunks, Purple Peril type flies, then I suggest cutting the float tip (from the back... do not remove taper from the front!) back to around 6' in length. This shortening of the floating tip will remove the "wobbling" and tailing effects that the original length produces on the casting of standard wets and I'm betting that it will produce quite a few surprising impressions at just how effective a tool it is for casting/fishing surface or near surface presentations!            

[speysack]

Great post Ed.  Thanks.  I gravitated to the 10' thing as a standard for me because of the MOW tips I purchased when starting out.

[hyfly]

Ed that is great info. I have 4 rods witch i use the most . For each rod i have 2 heads, one for light stuff and one for heavier flies. I figured that using the 2.5 to one formula and getting the same type/ length head for each separate one  helps solve the proper dialing in process. The idea behind the Mow tip (same length) is again brilliant, it keeps everything in the same ratio. The only thing i have to do now is to adjust the speed and input on the casting stroke. Things are getting easier now that there is more R&D in the Skagit evolution . All these innovations will facilitate the introduction of the style to many that find it complicated compared to buying a SH rod and getting the line weight marked on it. I was just wondering how much time and chopping experiments you guys had to go true to get were you are now. Thanks again, some one said that the only way to gain immortality is to share your knowledge, you guys have a good head start.

Hyfly

[meb]

I don't have much to add because I'm in the learning phase of spey casting and fishing, but I know that I have gained a great deal from this site.  The specific explanations answer questions I didn't even know I had.  I believe I can set myself up equipment-wise in a fairly simple way that will allow me to fish the majority of water I will encounter.

Thanks,

Mark

[camosled]

That is exactly why we are here.

Thanks for the interest.



JM

[speysack]

One more thought while I have you all... when I search past threads, I find Ed saying that 2.75-3 ratio of line to rod length to be the best "all around" skagit system.  Why do you factor the sink tip into the equation(at least at equal emphasis) when it doesn't have much effect on the sweep and it doesn't really become part of the D-loop.  A 13' rod would stand to work well with 39' of head + sink tip based on the formula, but I'm guessing it wouldn't cast very well with a 15' head and a 24' sink tip.  Conversely it would cast much different with a 35' head and a 4' sink tip.  If the factor is based on a "normal" sinktip length(10-15') then I would think the focus would be more on proper head length and weight.  I wouldn't think 3' of added tip length would be balanced in the system by simply using a 3' shorter head.

[riveraddict]

   The inclusion of the tip in Skagit line length formulaes is necessary to provide a basis from which to establish system guidelines. For instance, in Skagit casting, a major guideline is that a ratio of 3 1/2 times rod line length is not exceeded and it has to do with a few factors, the first being "casting ergonomics". It is around 3 1/2 times rod length that the movements needed to conduct the line Pickup process start to take the caster's hands far outside of the "box". Once the hands/arms get too far out of the box for line Pickup movements, it is almost impossible to get them back into the box for conducting a "proper", in-the-box, Sweep-Turnover-ForwardCastingStroke sequence. Factor two has to do with the line system being short enough so that ALL of the line can be put into a status of motion during the Sweep, while remaining in-the-box. Take note of the fact, that if you watch the fly during the Sweep-Turnover sequence, during the most efficient, energized casts (assuming ALL steps are being performed correctly), the fly will "pirouette" or pivot around in the water until it faces directly towards where the D-loop is being formed, even though the fly, leader and portion of tip remain in/under the water... the whole line system is in a dynamic state all the way down to the fly. If the fly does not pirouette during the Sweep-Turnover sequence, the fly will not lift out of the water efficiently on the Forward Cast, the cast will not feel smooth, line speed will be significantly reduced and casting accuracy and/or precision will be sub-standard. This entire-line-is-dynamic-during-the-Sweep mechanism becomes difficult to produce when line lengths go beyond 3 1/2 times rod length unless one breaks the arms/hands out of the box. Lastly, we strive to do all this while remaining in-the-box during the Sweep-Turnover-Forward Cast sequence, because staying-in-the-box is crucial to producing casting energy via Angular Momentum. One way to illustrate the effects of Angular Momentum is the swinging/twirling around of a ball on the end of a string... as long as that twirling is conducted by "locking" the arm in a fixed position and using only the wrist to do the "twirling" (= fixed pivot point), the degree of centrifugal effects onto the ball are maximized. However, if the arm is "loose" and "wobbles" off of that fixed point while swinging/rotating the ball, the centrifugal effects are drastically reduced. I hope that makes sense!?

   Keep in mind here that Skagit Casting is the newest of the Spey-type casting methods. Therefore, even though the foundational aspects of the casting style are pretty much proven, some of the "detail" aspects are still a bit "liquid". The 3 1/2 times "rule" was set forth as the MAXIMUM line length, one that I personally would use only in a "maximum distance, smaller flies, lighter tips" capacity. For general purpose, all-around, greatest degree of ease in casting, I have found around a 2.75 ratio to be very accomodating. For tight-quarters casting, the casting of large flies/heavy tips, or maximizing strip-retrieve fishing of streamers, a ratio of around 2.25 works great. The general effects of line length are: longer for distance, but lighter "payloads" and more casting room required; shorter for bigger payloads, tighter casting quarters, but less distance capability.

   Lastly, even though most of the line is placed onto the water during the Set phase of Skagit casting procedure, during the Sweep the majority of that line is in fact then projected into the D-loop, regardless of whether it is of floating or sinking (sinktip) designation. In the nano-second just prior to the Forward Cast, only a minor/very small portion of the entire line system remains tethered/anchored to the water's surface, once again regardless of whether it is sinking or floating. The sinking portion of any sink-type line WILL create more "stick" than a floater, but this extra stick occurs during the "ripping-line-off-the-water-during-the-Sweep" phase and NOT after the D-loop has formed. Therefore, sinktips do become part of the D-loop (unless, perhaps it's REALLY short such as a 2.5' MOW) and consequently, entire sinking lines can be cast via Skagit casting principles... it's just a matter of using an appropriate weight of line.                     

[speysack]

Thank you!  That makes sense and is important for my foundation of understanding.  Trust me when I say that I have read some of my faulty principals presented as law(such as tip doesn't form d-loop) from very reliable sources...at least in the eyes of a novice.  There are probably great spey casters that don't fully understand skagit casting..  eventhough they can pull the skagit casts off quite well.

[camosled]

Thank you!  That makes sense and is important for my foundation of understanding.  Trust me when I say that I have read some of my faulty principals presented as law(such as tip doesn't form d-loop) from very reliable sources...at least in the eyes of a novice.  There are probably great spey casters that don't fully understand skagit casting..  eventhough they can pull the skagit casts off quite well.

To help you keep the camps separate and make the most sense out of what Ed says, be conscious about the term Sustained Anchor Casting.  That is what Ed is describing.  The term Skagit Casting has been lumped into a more general concept by the general steelheading community of casting a Skagit Line with a two handed rod (or single handed in some cases).  Very different, for in most references made about "Skagit Casting", as you noted, there are many excellent casters throwing Skagit Heads using a modified Spey casting stroke based in a 180 degree power application sequence.  Ed is describing something very different.   SA casting uses rotational forces and constant power application (among many other things).  That is all I'll say about something that Ed is the expert on.

JM


 

[ronic]

so if I read this right, I have a couple of 11' switch rods and the "proper head to rod ratio" including sink tip should be something in the 24'-25' if I want the outfit to perform in bushy, tight casting situtations well using moderate sized steelhead flies.

Great info on casting here by the way.

thanks