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Author Topic: End of Summer thoughts...  (Read 3117 times)
riveraddict
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« on: September 13, 2011, 11:51:44 AM »

   Back from AK. Did a week of doublehander chasing Searuns in the Sound area, followed by some resident trouts on some Yellowstone area rivers while heading down to Texas. During driving times between destinations where I am rocking out to the likes of Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Metallica, Megadeath, and Ministry, I get lots of opportunity to think. One subject that I found a bit amusing was the condition that at the beginning of the North American Spey "Big Bang" it was commonly believed that the limit for "lightness" in doublehanding was at line designation number 7. A few years later and the real world application was found out to be 6... a few more years, then 5... now 4 and even 3. Of course, these are in "Spey" perspective, with, as an example, most 5 weight doubles being comparable to singlehanded 6's or 7's in fish-fighting aspects and line grain carrying capacity. Nonetheless, still an impressive downsizing of equipment and capabilities that have opened up a whole new arena of fishing opportunities for the doublehanded enthusiast!

   The reason I am musing over this subject is because of how I was able to fish for the Searuns and then the rezzies of the Yellowstone area... with 3 weight doublehanders of TRUE singlehanded 3 and 4 weight stature in a Skagit casting capacity. This matter isn't exactly new-new, as a couple of "us" have presented some discussion concerning it last year on this site. But now I have accrued enough practical on-stream experience with these ultralight doublehanded systems to present very confident opinions about them.

   But, before getting into a discussion on the practical merits of featherweight doublehanders, let's answer one question... why? What would be the greatest reasoning for wanting to Skagit cast a 3 weight DH (doublehander)? The answer would have to be, for the joy of of casting that way! I say this because of the following facts, facts that can be "banked on" as regards DH casting. The shorter the rod, and/or the lighter the line weight designation, and/or the faster the rod action, the more technically precise the casting technique must be to realize that systems casting potential. ALL THREE of the aforementioned conditions are INHERENT to the rod systems being discussed. The rods used were all originally singlehanders - an 8 1/2" 4 weight, a 9 1/2' 3 weight, and an 11' 3 weight - that had 4" to 5" handles added onto the butt. In other words, all three rods were sub 12' which is "short" in DH perspectives. All three rods performed best with Skagit bellies weighing from 147 grains to 193 grains... EXTREMELY LIGHT in the DH world. All three rods, are of faster action than typical "Spey" designated rods because they are actual singlehanded rods converted to a DH mode. Thus, in order to produce benefits from such light DH's that would actually be advantageous over the same rods used in their original singlehanded status, one must have the gumption to perfect their casting technique beyond that of the "average Joe". And the fact is, if you don't truly enjoy casting, then it is highly unlikely that the motivation is there to achieve casting "perfection". On the other hand, for those anglers that do undertake and complete a process of casting improvement in order to fish with featherweight DH's, the casting of longer, and/or heavier line weighted, and/or more moderately actioned rods then becomes, quite frankly, easy!          

   My primary motivation for delving into the arena of featherweight Skagit DHing springs exactly from that "love of casting" factor. My main passion in life is chasing winter steel with the swung fly. However, I have to admit that if it weren't for DHers and Skagit casting, that perhaps that passion would not be so strong... there is great added satisfaction to the winter steelheading game when, with a calculated series of compact movements involving seemingly physically minimal effort, a "normally" (in old school singlehander perspective) very demanding combination of sinking tip and outrageous fly go zipping out over the water with undeniably impressive speed and precision. The feeling has been described as being analogous to the perfect swing in golfing or nailing the "sweet spot" in baseball and it IS ADDICTING! So, in winter steelhead swing flyfishing, a recreational pursuit that by definition yields low "returns", being able to experience such "rewards" of hitting the sweet spot during the long intervals between contacts with fish, has become a significantly necessary facet of the game for me. Therefore, being quite passionate about steelheading, during the "off" seasons, I choose to experience angling pursuits that offer up some similar aspects to steelheading, as well as some different aspects from my "usual" fishing. The "similar" would be experiencing the sweet spots of casting, while the different ranges from species of fish pursued, to environmental conditions under which they are pursued. Thus, the 3 and 4 weight gig... an opportunity to pursue smaller quarry on smaller waters while still experiencing Skagit casting sweet spots (and also keeping one's casting skillset at a high level for the upcoming steelhead season!). It's not always the most productive or sensible approach of angling, but then again is "most productive" or "sensible" really supposed to be the primary definitor of RECREATIONAL or SPORT angling?! Isn't there some "fun" to be had in there somewhere?!  

   Now then, please don't take the tone of the last paragraph as implying that featherweight DHing can't also be effective... it most certainly can be incredibly so in the right situation. Just keep in mind that "effectiveness" isn't necessarily the primary purpose for their existence or use.

   So, on to the "practical":
- I would not recommend featherweight Skagit DHing for dead-drifting situations. In the case of nymphing, the Skagit bellies used are, as per usual for the casting style, quite short and heavier than other DH casting styles and therefore not as "supple" as other types of lines. Thus, they do not lend themselves to the accomodation of complicated mends or of trying to get the line to land in loose curves onto the water to facilitate fly sink rate. As regards dead-drifting dries, add to the above reasons the fact that Skagit casts are are water-based, which is not conducive to keeping dry flies dry!
- featherweight Skagit DHing is very effective in most situations where swinging is involved... whether that be skating surface flies that maintain their surface position through "mechanical" actions with the water (skaters, wakers, gurglers, poppers), or swinging subsurface fare such as soft hackles or streamers.  
- the main advantage of Skagit featherweight DHing over singlehanded overhead systems is the same as why "Spey" was originally conceived... ability to fish in tighter quarters due to the elimination of needing an overhead backcast.
- the main advantage of Skagit featherweight DHing over singlehanded Spey is that the use of two hands as a fulcruming device produces more real "power" than does Speycasting with one (singlehanded). Speycasting singlehanded while hauling does yield a higher degree of line speed which is very useful for casting small stuff, but still not the same "brute" power as two hands. I cannot explain the "why" of this but do know from practical experience that once one starts to increase fly size and/or weight, and/or employ a sinktip, that the use of two hands will produce better casting results than will one (singlehanded), even with the addition of a haul, especially when it comes to throwing sinktips.

   The points listed above are what I consider to be fairly solid... in other words, pretty difficult to argue a case against. However, I experienced some other advantages with the featherweight DH Skagit systems that perhaps someone more skilled in singlehanded casting could possibly duplicate using a singlehander, but I cannot while using the same rod in a singlehanded mode. First off would be a wider range of "carrying capacity"... the ability of each rod to cast bigger and/or heavier flies, and/or sinking tips than normally associated with the stature of the equipment. All three of the rod systems worked well with up to size 2 weighted Wooly Bugger type flies and 2.5' T-8 MOW sinktip. The 11' 3 weight went as far up as a 3" splitshotted Pork Rind on a 5' T-8 MOW sinktip. Second, was an increased capacity for dealing with wind... I found the 3 and 4 weights in DH Skagit mode to cast effectively in winds up to a bit over 10mph, perhaps as high as 15 mph (this is guesstimation, thus the ambiguous nature of the figures). Last was distance... the two shorter rods, the 8 1/2' 4 weight and 9 1/2' 3 weight, could crank the 2.5' T-8 MOW and #2 Bugger out to around 65'. The 11' 3 weight could reach out to around 70'. All rods could reach a bit further when cast with smaller flies (once again, these figures are a guesstimation). These are, to me anyways, impressive figures for such light equipment!

   To give a "real world" example of what can be accomplished with the featherweight DH Skagit systems, the 9 1/2' 3 weight worked very well for fishing the Madison River inside the park. With it I was able to (in conjunction with wading into the most advantageous position, of course) hit the far bank while casting a size 6 weighted bugger, trailed by a # 14 or 16 softhackle on a floating line and 11' leader, in the majority of places that I fished. In the mornings and evenings a 3"ish, lightly weighted Sculpin pattern on the 2.5 MOW was quite workable to about 55"-60' and once again, in most places I could place the fly within inches of the opposite bank. 8" to 10" fish felt respectable, while the largest fish landed - a 19"-20" Brown - was a very exciting battle (caught in a clean, open tailout - it would have been "history" had it been anywhere where that fish could have accessed structured cover!). I had one big Brown clearly expose itself as an unusually more impressive specimen as it surface slashed at the Sculpin. It would have been very interesting to see how the rod would have handled it had it hooked-up... it looked to be around a 4 to 6 pound fish!
    

...in progress...      

    
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 09:43:08 AM by riveraddict » Logged

camosled
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« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2011, 12:25:12 PM »

Nice to have you back in the fold.   

Hope all was good up AK way.  We should start talking about SM5 and the warmwater stuff you want to pursue.


JM

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ouzel
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« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2011, 04:21:08 PM »

R A

Funny you should post this today as I just came back from chasing sea run cutties with a 6 wt switch I just built ( my 1 st) specifically for that purpose and smaller summer run steel. I'm finding my self thinking when it comes to the trout ," it's still too much , I need a 4 wt" . What process are you using to remove the butt cap? I have an old Loomis GL2 5 wt that I'd like to convert to a switch. I can't get rid of it as it was my first "nice " fly rod and it holds too many memories, however it never gets used now.

On the subject of being addicted to casting , in the beginning I was addicted to fishing now after picking up the 2 hander I find I am very addicted to casting!!! Still very much addicted to fishing but the DH is just so much more enjoyable to fish using both the skagit and scandi styles. The only single handing now is usually upstream dries which the smaller switchs do just fine.

Running to the hills , hell bent for leather , I am a vagabond!!!

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riveraddict
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« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2011, 12:19:23 AM »

Ouzel, I too found 6 weight Switches and even most 5's to be too much rod for Searuns and also most resident stream trouting in the lower 48 (Alaska is an entirely different story though!). That was the impetus that drove me to checking out the conversion of 3 and 4 weight singles into doubles. The process recommended to me for removing butt caps to facilitate adding a lower handle onto singlehanded rods was to submerge that portion of the rod into a pot of boiling water. Said process did not produce any loosening of any of the reel seat-butt cap assembly for me. My second approach, a propane torch, did loosen everything, along with totally destroying some nylon shims located between the locking rings and reel seat barrel that I didn't notice until they evaporated in a puff of smoke! So, I instead decided to try a non-destructive, "add-on" method...
... bought some small diameter threaded steel rod at Lowe's, along with a drill bit of slightly smaller diameter than the rod. Used the drill bit to drill a hole up through the center of the butt cap, then using a pair of gloves, screwed the threaded rod up into that hole about 3/4". The steel rod cuts its own threading through the softer aluminum butt cap. I then backed the rod back out, injected a two part epoxy up into the hole in the butt cap, an amount of which would, when cured, fill the inside of the reel seat barrel with enough material to prevent any side-to-side movement of that portion of the threaded rod that would be encased within the reel seat barrel, then screwed the threaded rod back into the hole. After the epoxy cures, it is then easy enough to glue cork rings or pre-made foam handles onto the threaded rod as per the usual handle building process. The threaded steel rod does add some weight to the completed rod, but once a reel is put onto the rod it doesn't seem noticeable to me and I don't think that there are any worries to be had over it ever coming apart!.     
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SLSS
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« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2011, 09:35:42 AM »

I haven't gone below a dh 4 wt yet, but find myself using either my Meiser system 2 or the deco 4 for any number of places that a sh rod would make more sense to many, for just the reason RA said- simply the fun of casting.

I use to build and rebuild a lot of rods, and found the most consistent way to remove butt caps to be the heat from and electric stove burner. Easy to dial heat up or down as necessary, and easy to roll the butt cap along the burner. Patience, leather glove and sometimes channel locks took off lots of caps for rebuilds.
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ouzel
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« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2011, 11:11:53 AM »

Thanks guys.
I've read about heating but like the idea of using ready rod as it will be easy to turn the grip down with a drill and solves the need for a chunk of rod blank to build on.
Any ideas for grain wt / head length for a 9' 5wt that will soon be a 9' 3.5" - 4" ?
Thanks again
O

P.S: love the searuns! Single hand casting flies like this with a sinktip is just no fun!!
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 12:37:49 PM by ouzel » Logged

camosled
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« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2011, 11:47:10 AM »

Ed,

This thread is awesome.  I'm thinking about turning a 6100 Sage RP into a 4 weight and since I already added the after market butt extension (Only 2 inches though), it should be easy to add a slightly more casting friendly one.  I've already built the line for this rod from the forward taper of an old 6/7 Delta Spey. 

BTW, Skagit Master 4 will follow Tom Larimer back to his home waters in the Midwest.  I think a super cool element of that show would be if you and Dave Pinzkowski were already hard at it when we showed up with the cameras...Then make the transition into SM5...the warm water stuff, with you and Dave. Then follow you down south to the Texas and salt water stuff.   You like?

JM

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blackgrass
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« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2011, 09:58:54 AM »

Ed,
Would you give us some idea of the what you look for in a 3-4 weight rod to convert to a double-hander?  This sounds like a really fun project.  I am chasing tailwater trout and have all but given up on the singlehander....just for funs sake as much as anything else. 
My current rod is the TFO 11' 4wt. and I'm about to pull the trigger on the TFO 12.6" 4/5.  A thrue 3 weight would be pretty sweet.
Thanks....
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riveraddict
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« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2011, 06:14:41 PM »

   Awesome fish Ouzel! Love those Searuns!

   OK, here's the particulars on equipment-
- rod #1, Cabelas CZN 9 1/2' 3 weight. This rod is a Czech Nymphing rod described as having a supple tip and strong butt. So, the best way I feel to describe this rods action is "compressed fast". In other words, the "fastness" is contained in a much shorter area than"usual". This rod is the most persnickety of the three to cast... it's either great if your timing is "on", or it sucks if you're off... not much in between. Having said that, I absolutely love this rod when I'm "on". I used a 149 grain @ 11 1/2' belly (cut from a 275 RIO Skagit Short) for casting size 4 to 8 Wooly Bugger type stuff. For larger fare of up to lightly weighted 2 1/2" sparse Sculpin-type patterns, a SA Singlehand Skagit #5 cut way down to 168 grains @ 11 1/2'.
- rod #2, TFO Lefty Kreh Finesse 8' 9" 4 weight. Rod is described as being built for low and clear fishing conditions requiring a delicate presentation. Used a 193 grain @ 12 1/2' belly on this rod. Can't recall the original line it was cut from. Very pleasant and easy casting outfit.
- rod #3, Greys 11' 3 weight. Same line as above... 193 grains @ 12 1/2'. Another very pleasant but also surprisingly "potent" casting rod. If you want a true three that will toss 2"ish streamers out to 70' but still be fun to fight 8"ish fish on, this rod is the one.

   All rods performed well with 2.5 T-8 MOW's. The Greys was also used with and did well with a 5 T-8 MOW. I did not have a need to use anything more than the 2.5 T-8 MOW for the conditions I encountered on the CZN or TFO, so I can't give any thoughts beyond that, but I'm thinking that they should handle up to the 5 T-8 MOW also. For a floating tip, what has worked very well for me is to take the floating tip from the MOW kit and cut it back to 5' or 6' in length and then run a standard 9', 10', up to 12' leader. That configuration sizzles! Note the extreme shortness of the bellies described. This concentration of weight allows these light sticks to cast into conditions of wind not normally associated with 3 and 4 weight fishing. This concentration of weight is also what allows these rods to throw sizeable flies for that rod class, in addition to sinktips of a nature that actually give a quick sinkrate. If you decide to stretch the length of the belly out to a longer one, keep in mind that you will start to lose those described characteristics.

   My suggestion on what to look for in rods is a medium fast action. I wouldn't go any less than that or the window of capability will get narrow. On the other hand, don't choose a Czech nymphing style action either without considering what I wrote about it previously. Think about the conditions on where you plan to use the rod and choose an appropriately useful length. Lastly, I would suggest entering into this game with less expensive rods. I think that both the Cabelas CZN and TFO were below $200. The Greys was below $300. Yet, they have all performed beyond my expectations.

   As regards suggestions for a 9'+ 5 weight... I have a TFO 10 1/2' 5 weight singlehander that converts to a Switch by screwing in an optional lower handle. It casts phenomonally well with a 280 grain belly of 16' (cut from an SA Singlehand Skagit #8) and T-8 MOW's. So, for the 9'+, I would suggest a 275 grainer and if its a bit heavy it is easy enough to cut it back a bit.

   One final note... I tend to throw much lighter than most as regards weight of lines. If using any of the listed figures as a starting point for lining a rod, I suggest going about 20 grains heavier than my figures. It is much easier to start a bit heavy and then cut back if need be, than it is to start too light and then end up having to add weight. Have fun with it (I have and am) and post up commentary and pictures of your experiences please!     
« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 07:51:56 PM by riveraddict » Logged

blackgrass
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« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2011, 11:10:37 AM »

Thanks for the info.  Good stuff.
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fishswing
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« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2011, 01:00:13 AM »

Ed and everyone else on this thread. This is my first post and I signed up because of this topic. I was so excited to see this. I tried to email Ed on Speypages with some questions about this but no luck. I too do not spend to much time on SP anymore. Anyway.....

I am located in Portland oregon and I have been playing with this process a good amount. I am a steelhead junkie and most of the year I can chase steel however sometimes there are a couple problems. #1 a few months mainly the meat of the summer to chase steelhead involves being on the water before first light and those spots are usually a couple hours away at least. #2 During the summer I just need to fish sometimes and the drive to rivers with fish is often just too much for me. So..... when the local Portland rivers are not worth it(only really a few months) I look to Mr Smallmouth. I go right down to the old Willamette river and play around. I do have access to a couple floating devices but I do not even bother, I just chuck some meat from the bank.

I quickly realized that I needed to incorporate my love of the 2hand rod and style of casting and lines to Bass in the local area. I started cutting and chopping lines and enjoyed it a lot. I even looked into getting an actual 2hand rod that was small but after a few days with it I realized even a 4wt long rod was a little much. So, I kept at the tweaking and cutting to build a skagit style line on my 9'6" 5wt. Long story short I ended with a line I felt was good but it was 18' and about 260 grains. It worked well but I wanted it even shorter. I got in contact with Steve down in southern Oregon and he made me up a 240grain 14ft head that is kind of a cross between a Scandi and a Skagit. The head is really thick but has a good taper. It can cast a 10ft Xtra fast sinking poly leader no problem.

I wanted a really short head because I wanted to eliminate the need for the Head/Shooting line junction to ever go back into the rod guides. With the 30ft or so of Head/Poly/Leader/Fly I can cast out and strip in almost back to the bank and then without having to wiggle the head back out of the guides I am basically set up and ready to blast. To be honest I can just roll cast this set up out to about 70ft fairly easy with a lead eye clouser. It is fun for sure.

I have got into a few Bass and all are still a treat to fight on a 5wt single hand rod. I admit I have taken my biggest bass on a popper using another 9'6" 5wt/Royal Wulff Ambush line/Poly/Popper set up fished in a normal overhand casting style. In the early morning there are a few one hitters I get 2-3 casts in and a savage take from a Bass and then it is over.

Anyway, I have been thinking about trying to add a lower handle to my TFO 5wt and make it a true 2hand rod. Before I read this post I spent some time in Home Depot trying to figure it out. I will be honest the method Ed talks about scares me a bit. Even though I have the perfect rod to do it to(TFO professional) I fear that I will screw it up.

Ed, Would it be possible to see some photos of your finished rod modifications? I need some inspiration!! Maybe even some photos from the process if you have them.

Thanks, this thread is awesome. I love playing with the 2hand casting style on my single hand rods.

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Rick J
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« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2011, 11:29:50 AM »

great thread - I have converted three old single hand Fishers I had built back in the early 80's - a 10' 7; 10' 8 and a 10.5' 8/9 - had short (4") butt section installed on back. These were my North Umpqua rods!

I absolutely love the converted 10' 7 and am mainly throwing a cut back Vision Ace  at 27' and 360 grains. I have used this rod mainly on my "home" river the Klamath but fished it on the Grand Ronde and Ed, Mike and Scott have all cast it and thought it was pretty awesome. The biggest Fischer has a too soft tip that will collapse if throwing too heavy stuff but boy that 7 sings!!!!!  So I really like the idea of an ultralight for half pounders on the Klamath and need to look for that Grey's!

I recently converted a very old Fenwick HMG 10.5' 5 wt ( a real noodle!) - it is ok but not real happy with it.
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fishswing
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« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2011, 02:30:46 PM »

If anyone out there has some images they could share of their conversions that would be awesome. I need some inspiration! Thanks.
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Rick J
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« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2011, 10:29:10 AM »


Here is a photo of 4 single hand rods I had converted to switch rods - from top - old 10.5' 5 wt Fenwick HMG from late 70's; 10' 7 wt Fisher; 10' 8 wt Fischer; 10.5' 8-9 wt Fisher - all from early 80's - these were my go to rods for the North Umpqua

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fishswing
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« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2011, 12:07:56 PM »

Rick, I must say those look amazing! I would have never guessed they where converted. Any chance on some detailed info on how you went about it?
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