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Author Topic: 45 degree thrust  (Read 33339 times)
MacSuibhne
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« on: May 17, 2013, 08:50:52 AM »

Can someone, or several someones, please explain to me in simple language what a 45 degree thrust is: what it looks like, what it feels like, what it is intended to accomplish.

I've watched SM1, read remarks here but still don't understand...is it a change of direction at all? Is it an acceleration?

I apologize for being so dense and maybe I'm already doing something close to a 45 degree thrust but although I seem to be coming along fair to middling with my sustained anchor casting, I think I am still missing that critical element.

thanks
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Tioraidh

camosled
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« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2013, 03:55:43 PM »

Imagine that the current and river bank are parallel lines.  90 degrees  across those two parallel lines is your casting direction, just for kicks.  There is a 45 degree line that spits the intended casting direction/line and the current line.  The 45 degree line begins, where you plan to land your fly and runs upstream or downstream infinitely back into the woods....The 45 degree thrust is a conscious movement of the hands, which moves the rod tip towards and along that 45 degree line, during the end of the sweep and into the turnover, before the forward cast.  It is a subtle movement to maintain load on the road and keep the D Loop from wrapping around towards your casting shoulder.   If you are using constant motion throughout the sweep, turnover, casting stroke, the thrust is much easier to incorporate.  If however, you're trying to bring the thrust into a Sweep, Pause, Then go type of motion, it is much harder place into the sequence, and rather unnecessary.  In the simplest terms, it's a positive set of the direction of the D loop in Ed's style of casting. 

Ed will be able to explain it more clearly.   I probably should have let him do it the first place.

JM
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MacSuibhne
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« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2013, 07:33:12 PM »

So rather than continue the circular motion of the sweep, the direction of the rod tip (?) is straightened slightly?

I also thought that the motion began to rise as well?
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Tioraidh

camosled
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« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2013, 08:38:36 PM »

It's more of a movement in the position of the hands in relation to the torso.
Imagine conducting a turn over with the top hand in front of the sternum then conduct another turn over where your tool hand in front of your shoulder.  The thrust gets you from one to the other.  You will need to start loaded to the left to get to the right.

Did I make it worse?

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MacSuibhne
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« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2013, 08:51:04 AM »

Not worse, but honestly, I can't visualize what you're saying there. I guess if I could I wouldn't be asking about 45° thrust.  Cheesy

Maybe if I come at this from a little different angle...what is the purpose of a 45° thrust? Just to make sure the D-loop doesn't wrap behind you? Or to add extra load to the D-loop?

In any case, thank you for responding...
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Tioraidh

Rick J
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« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2013, 09:50:05 AM »

Ed talks about keeping in the box- if you keep your elbows essentially tight to your sides, it is difficult to come out of the box - now if you keep your wrist straight during the sweep, your top hand palm will be facing up - note- there is only so far you can move your hands and arms with elbows at the sides before you lock - once you are in this position with a rod in your hand look where the rod is pointing - it is in the perfect 45 thrust posiition. If you open your wrist rather than keeping it straight, you will wrap around too far

You now just open the wrist slightly and rotate it so your palm is now facing you with the thumb on top and come into the forward cast - do this in slow motion a few times keeping it a continuous flow - out and around
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MacSuibhne
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« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2013, 10:05:33 AM »

Ed talks about keeping in the box- if you keep your elbows essentially tight to your sides, it is difficult to come out of the box - now if you keep your wrist straight during the sweep, your top hand palm will be facing up - note- there is only so far you can move your hands and arms with elbows at the sides before you lock - once you are in this position with a rod in your hand look where the rod is pointing - it is in the perfect 45 thrust posiition. If you open your wrist rather than keeping it straight, you will wrap around too far

You now just open the wrist slightly and rotate it so your palm is now facing you with the thumb on top and come into the forward cast - do this in slow motion a few times keeping it a continuous flow - out and around

That's a really nice description, Rick. It gives me a mental picture of what my hands and arms should be doing. At some point, I understand that the 45° thrust is a preventative to coming around too far but how to actually accomplish that except by not over-rotating the rod, is another question.

I was watching SM1 again (third time?) this weekend and paid particular attention to the 45° thrust. I could broadly see what he was doing but your description really filled in the blanks.

BTW, I can't believe the things I pick up new or fresh every time I watch the video. Ed really opened my eyes with regard to the double spey. That high lift over the shoulder...can't wait to get out and try that. Also keeping feet pointed down stream. 
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Tioraidh

riveraddict
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« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2013, 05:53:42 PM »

   In the thread, "Opinions and/or Corrections please", in reply number 14, there is a description I've given of the 45Thrust.
   But, I'll try another. In SA casting, harnessing to advantage, the effects of water tension on the line for casting, dictates that Skagit sweeps are more of a "pulling-the-line" action rather than "lifting-the-line" action. Thus, Sweep planes in SA casting are more horizontally oriented than vertically oriented. SA Sweep planes range from zero degrees (horizontal) to a maximum of about 30 degrees. Any higher than that 30 degree maximum and the amount of tension produced against the rod by the water and line, is reduced because the line is being "lifted out" of the water rather than "pulled around". Yet, we must also aerialize the line during the Sweep in order to get it to form a D-loop. To satisfy that requirement of aerialization, while also accomplishing the pulling requirement, we need to project the line into a distinct semi-circular, out-and-around trajectory - as viewed from directly above/overhead of the caster (think of swinging a ball around on the end of a string). Now then, if we start our Sweep with a distinct semi-circular, out-and-around trajectory and continue it to the point where the D-loop is to be formed, the line will want to continue traveling BEYOND that D-loop formation point. This will result in an over-rotated or "hooked" D-loop, which is at the very least, an inefficient use of energy and at the very worst a cause for angler-to-fly or rod-to-fly collisions. The remedy to this situation, is that at some point of the Sweep, we must guide the line from its initially produced semi-circular path, to a linear path... continued next post.       
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riveraddict
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« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2013, 06:12:53 PM »

   Now then, draw this view - from directly above the caster (overhead), current flowing from right to left. Caster is facing directly across stream. A line drawn straight downstream from the caster's left shoulder is zero degrees. A line drawn straight across river from the caster's nose is 90 degrees. A line drawn straight upstream from the caster's right shoulder is 180 degrees. A line drawn straight back from the caster's spine is 270 degrees. Now find the 225 degree mark and draw a line back from there. That 225 line is a "45 off the shoulder" direction... in progress. 
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MacSuibhne
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« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2013, 08:25:36 PM »

Ed,

OK...I think I understand all that. (thanks BTW, for taking the time) And after watching SM1 for the third time I am even more convinced I understand it.

But no disrespect intended...why not just say "don't continue the circular motion of the sweep too far"?

I was tending to break out of the "box" trying to "thrust" at 45 degrees. Is it really a new vector?

And "thrust" conveys an acceleration or a change in energy. Maybe even somewhat "abrupt".

All I'm saying is that the terminology really confused me.

OTOH, maybe I don't really understand, after all.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 08:26:11 PM by MacSuibhne » Logged

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Tioraidh

riveraddict
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« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2013, 10:05:37 PM »

OK, let me re-do the illustration because the prior isn't coming across like I want. Draw a large circle. Put in a center point. Bisect the circle with a line through the center. Bisect it with a line through the center one more time, this line being perpendicular to the first so that the circle now is divided into 4 equal parts. Draw a very small circle around the center point... this is the caster's head. Put a small triangle on the little circle, straddling one of the lines... this is the anglers nose. Draw 2 separate small squares onto the small circle that straddle each line that is perpendicular to the nose line... these are the caster's shoulders. On the "nose" line mark 0, on the right "shoulder" line mark 90, on the line that is located where the caster's "spine" would be, mark 180, on the left "shoulder" line mark 270. Now, find and mark where 135 degrees and 225 degrees are. Assuming that the caster is casting towards zero, any cast where the D-loop is formed off the right shoulder, it should be "directed" to around the 135 degree area. Any cast where the D-loop is to be formed off the left shoulder the D is directed towards a 225 degree direction. These angles can also be thought of as "45 degrees off shoulder". What I instruct is to think of ending the Sweep in a 45 degree off shoulder angle and do NOT think of a 180.
   Several reasons:
- "We"humans tend to use our body position as a reference point in casting. Thus, a 180 visualization places the D-loop behind us... not good for obvious reasons.
- In order to effect a CM/CL process, the D-loop must be positioned/formed outside the intended path of the Forward Casting Stroke. A 45 degree off-shoulder D location provides the room for bringing the rod "inside" for the Forward Casting Stroke - a separation of planes. A 180 degree D-loop position provides no such separation.
- An SA Sweep has a very pronounced, horizontal-ish "out&around" trajectory. Thus the line will actually continue to travel BEYOND the intended D-loop formation point if something isn't done to "rectify" the situation. That "something" is to "straighten" the trajectory of the line before D-loop formation. In personal instruction situations, I say to perform the Sweep "out&around" but to keep in mind that at the end of the Sweep we want the D-loop to form in a 45 degree off shoulder position. This simple instruction, along with actual demonstration, is usually enough to produce the desired result as starting the Sweep with out&around visualization while keeping the end result of a 45 off-shoulder D position in mind, "naturally" produces a straightening of the line trajectory prior to D-loop formation. However, I have had many people who cannot help but to continue a rotational movement into D-loop formation. So, to counter this action, I instructed them to think of a small "jab" or thrust of the rod tip of a FEW INCHES into the 45 off-shoulder direction at the end of the Sweep. Over time, I found that in demonstrating this move, there was a noticeable increase in casting performance, regardless of whether or not the move was "needed" to correct a fault or not. It impressed me enough to become an integral part of my casting regimen. Keep in mind that the jab/thrust is a "piercing back with a spear" movement - the rod is thrust in line with itself (along its axis), both hands moving in unison... there should be no bending or flexing of the rod and that with practice it can be pared down to a distance of two inches or less... small enough to have no real effect on "the box".

   It's a very simple move really, but so friggen hard to explain!
            
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 10:34:08 PM by riveraddict » Logged

riveraddict
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« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2013, 07:35:32 AM »

   I want to add to this that, therefore, the purpose of the 45Thrust is to straighten out the trajectory of the line, to change it from a "rotational" status, to a linear one. The "thrust" part isn't as important as the achievement of a 45 off-shoulder positioning of the rod at the end of the Sweep. If one is able to arrive into the correct 45 off-shoulder position without consciously employing a "jab" or "thrust", then I would say don't worry about. On the other hand, if one is having troubles with the 45 off-shoulder positioning and continually hooking the D-loop, then consider using a small "jab" of the rod into a 45 off-shoulder direction at the end of the Sweep.   
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FK
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« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2013, 05:38:25 PM »

Ed,

Thanks for the detailed description.  

This was the method as I understood it from you SM1 videos.

We will reference this thread to all of our students.

Regards,
FK
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 05:39:02 PM by FK » Logged

MacSuibhne
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« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2013, 07:42:00 PM »

Ed,

Thanks again. I appreciate you taking the time to explain.

I haven't had time to get out on the river since I began this thread but I've got a lot to think about and work on when I do.
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Tioraidh

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« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2013, 02:01:29 PM »

In the past I was able to understand the meaning of the 45thrust from Ed Ward's explanation on his DVD.   I was therefore discouraged to see that the newly-published book "Flycasting Skills for beginner and expert"  by John Symonds and Philip Maher has a chapter on the Skagit cast where the 45 degree thrust is explained this way: raising the rod tip so that the rod is canted out at a 45-degree angle. (We're not talking about the rod plane here!)
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